Behind the Curtain: Inside post-Kirk MAGA's reality

The fallout has riled MAGA, with Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes and critics of Israel vs. Ben Shapiro, Laura Loomer and the most intense Israel supporters.

The big picture: We've told you about three tectonic plates shifting in America — AI, politics and how our realities are formed. On reality-forming, we've emphasized how America has hundreds of "realities," based on your politics, age, passions and profession.

• This fight takes you deep inside the reality for many MAGA activists — especially men, and especially young men who get most of their reality shaped by YouTube, podcasts and X influencers on the MAGA right.

If you listen to or watch Carlson or Shapiro — and tens of millions do — the weeks after Kirk's death have included never-ending fights over Israel's power in America, Qatar's funding of anti-Israel influencers on the right, and what Kirk would think if he were still alive.

• The enormous audience size for both Carlson and Shapiro shows why this debate echoes through and beyond MAGA.

Both boast millions of social media followers — for Carlson, 16.7 million X followers and nearly 5 million YouTube subscribers; for Shapiro, almost 8 million X followers and over 7 million YouTube subscribers.

• On Monday, Carlson topped the news category on Spotify's podcast charts and hit No. 7 for the same category on Apple's charts. Shapiro hit No. 10 and No. 8 on the respective charts.
• A ferocious attack Monday by Shapiro on Carlson — calling the former Fox News star an "intellectual coward" and "dishonest interlocutor" — drew 6.1 million views on X in under six hours, with another nearly 130,000 YouTube views.

Carlson got clobbered by Shapiro and others for a soft, friendly interview last week with Nick Fuentes — a proud white nationalist who amplifies racism, sexism and antisemitism, and has grown popular among hardcore America First nationalists.

• Carlson didn't grill Fuentes on his most outrageous positions, from doubting Holocaust death counts to proclaiming his adoration of Stalin. Over two hours of conversation, Carlson did little to push or challenge Fuentes.

Carlson's interview with Fuentes has racked up 17.3 million X views and 5.2 million YouTube views.

• Shapiro said on his podcast Monday: "This is how Tucker Carlson's ideological laundering works. You bring your dirty, ugly ideologies to Tucker Carlson's rhetorical car wash. He mixes it with some of the vestigial respect Americans have for him, from his Fox News days. And, voilà: Hideous ideas suddenly become mainstream."

Axios' Tal Axelrod, who tracks MAGA media full-time, said Fuentes' audience is hard to gauge. His show isn't supported by Apple or Spotify, so it doesn't appear on their charts. He doesn't have a YouTube channel. His X account was reinstated just last year by Elon Musk.

• Still, he has roughly 1 million X followers and almost 470,000 followers on Rumble — the conservative video streaming alternative to YouTube, where his Monday-Friday show, along with other content on his channel, has racked up almost 62 million views.
• His less inflammatory takes, often showcasing humor, regularly circulate on Instagram, TikTok and X, garnering many more views.

Inside MAGA: Alex Bruesewitz, a close friend of Kirk's who's influential in MAGA social media, told us there have "always been competing factions within the right-wing internet; the media just covers the spats now! Our party allows for debate of ideas ... I think public spats and debates strengthen our party in the long term."

But it's hard for MAGA celebrities, GOP leaders and conservative groups to avoid getting sucked into this. Sen. Rick Scott (R-Fla.) told The New York Times (under the headline "G.O.P. Figures Seek Distance From Tucker Carlson, Denouncing Antisemitism"): "We've got to be very clear we don't support antisemitism and we do support Israel."

Heritage Foundation president Kevin Roberts defended Carlson after the Fuentes sit-down, infuriating Republicans who find Fuentes deplorable. Some staff and Heritage supporters were livid. A Heritage shakeup did little to mitigate the fury. (Heritage told us there was one related departure out of nearly 350 employees — Roberts' chief of staff resigned.)

• The day after the video defending Carlson, Roberts also condemned antisemitism and Fuentes: "I denounce and stand against [Fuentes'] vicious antisemitic ideology, his Holocaust denial, and his relentless conspiracy theories that echo the darkest chapters of history. "

"The New Right's New Antisemites," jeered the headline of a Wall Street Journal editorial on Monday. "Kevin Roberts of the Heritage Foundation flounders in the Tucker Carlson-Nick Fuentes fever swamps."

• In response, a Heritage spokesman told Axios: "The Wall Street Journal's hit piece is a sad attempt to cherry-pick information to push a distorted narrative."

The bottom line: If you're not on X, or don't marinate in MAGA media, you might not even know this intraparty fight was unfolding. But it holds huge stakes for the post-Trump trajectory of America's most muscular political movement.

• Go deeper: Ben Shapiro blasts Tucker Carlson over Fuentes interview.